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Thursday, January 08, 2009
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 1:12 AM |
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Why are you wasting your time hassling LL's who house you at cheap rents that are below interest costs if you were to buy yourselves? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!!!!
So is it Priced Out that is the cause of recent media talk of abolishing tax relief from interest payments from LL's? Or are you just jumping on some bandwagon? I calculate that if this were abolished, an LL paying 40% tax would need to raise their rents by 59% to restore the position. As that would be a painful course shift, selling up would be much easier & you'd be on the street. Naturally you'll reply that the govt should protect you from LL's by giving you security of tenure. Why? It sounds like you just want to steal from one part of society to benefit yourself to me.
Anyway, I want to point out to you something I've pointed out on GHPC for a little while now, LL's have NO tax incentives. They charge a rate and pay tax on their income. Their income is determined after expenses are taken into account, just like any other business does. There is no incentive here, simply a realistic assessment of income to pay tax on. You are paying less rent because this calculation is realistic and you are therefore benefitting from it being realistic.
A landlord with no mortgage, would pay tax on the entire income from the property, plus CGT.
On the other hand, an OO who buys a home for cash, benefits from the return on their property being completely tax free. They pay no tax on the implied return (money that they would have received as interest in a bank a/c and paid tax on, but now receive as accomodation services from a house) and they pay no CGT. OO's are 70% of the market and are completely tax free. Why are you not campaigning against that? I think I know why, because you hope to enjoy these benefits for yourselves someday.
Lets presume for a moment that nobody wants OO's to be taxed fairly, we all want our own home to be tax free. What about 2nd home owners having empty holiday homes and wealthier people who have multiple homes when they can only occupy one at a time. Shouldn't they be taxed more fairly?
Currently, a person buying a 2nd & third etc home for cash, enjoys the benefit of no longer having to pay income tax on the money that would have been in the bank, they may have to pay CGT when they sell though. This is wrong IMO. They should have to pay tax on implied rent, which is a calculation of what rent they would have achieved had the property been available to someone else and states the value of the accomodation benefit to them. This would be completely fair, as the person would have paid income tax on the interest for money in the bank, so why not income tax on implied rent for their additional homes?
A completely fair system, would allow all to have one tax free home, plus for any aditional homes, for either the rent or the implied rent, to be taxable after accounting for interest paid.
So for example, a very wealthy person with additional homes with no mortgages would pay full tax on the implied rent. However moderately wealthy people who borrowed for their additional homes, would pay tax on the implied rent left over after interest was accounted for. So a person borrowing for this purpose would simply have their interest to pay (which is taxed somewhere else as income for someone else).
This would level the playing field dramatically, leaving your LL's business alone (and therefore your rent level) as the place is occupied and run like any other business, but removing the crazy incentive for mega-rich people to own multiple empty homes avoiding income taxes. |
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 1:15 AM |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent
I bet you didn't know that the UK used to tax OO's in this way on their own homes did you? |
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pleb_renter
First Timer
Posts:0
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| 07/07/2007 2:53 AM |
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Posted By TTRTR on 07/07/2007 1:12 AM
Why are you wasting your time hassling LL's who house you at cheap rents that are below interest costs if you were to buy yourselves? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!!!!
I can't stand this notion that landlords are "providing a service", and that they're somehow subsidising me. If they weren't in the market in the first place we wouldn't be in this situation.
I also can't stand the notion that somehow rental demand is supporting the market. Rental demand wouldn't be anywhere near what it is if home-ownership were more affordable. Again - if the property investers weren't hoovering up all the property like blood-suckers, I and thousands of other people would BUY NOT RENT. I'm sick of renting. I hate renting! I'm FORCED INTO RENTING when I would buy if prices weren't inflated. |
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 3:09 AM |
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Posted By pleb_renter on 07/07/2007 2:53 AM
Posted By TTRTR on 07/07/2007 1:12 AM
Why are you wasting your time hassling LL's who house you at cheap rents that are below interest costs if you were to buy yourselves? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!!!![/quote]
I can't stand this notion that landlords are "providing a service", and that they're somehow subsidising me. If they weren't in the market in the first place we wouldn't be in this situation.
I also can't stand the notion that somehow rental demand is supporting the market. Rental demand wouldn't be anywhere near what it is if home-ownership were more affordable. Again - if the property investers weren't hoovering up all the property like blood-suckers, I and thousands of other people would BUY NOT RENT. I'm sick of renting. I hate renting! I'm FORCED INTO RENTING when I would buy if prices weren't inflated.
If prices were low, you'd be scared to invest any money in your home, because it would be like pouring money into a black hole. A strong market means people can invest in their own homes and the value won't be lost.
If prices fell, you would be too scared to buy & you would become acutely aware of the service that your LL is subsidising for you.
I just gave you a way of levelling the playing field by removing incentives to empty homes, but all you want is to have a go at those that house you now. They've paid the market price to buy, you pay the market price to rent, it is a fair deal and serves you well when you need it, like now.
A rented dwelling, rented at a fair price isn't an injustice. An empty dwelling, heated and maintained for 4 to 8 weeks use a year and the capital tied up in it escaping normal taxes is an injustice.
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unclealbert
Activist
Posts:442
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| 07/07/2007 3:10 AM |
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Time to Raise the Rents,
I just wondered how long it would be before you appeared on this site.
I have read many of your posts on GHPC forum and you have a distinct
knack of being very aggressive towards tenants. I am aware of your
portfolio and whilst everyone is entitled to their opinions, it is a shame
you have decided to come on this forum, which is specifically designed
to promote unaffordable housing.
Opinions from landlords (professional or otherwise) whilst justified, are
usually targeting tenants and people with no option of buying their own
property for their financial security. My professional opinion is that it is
the BTL's that have had an impact on the over-inflated housing crisis we
now find ourselves in.
I think it would be a good idea for you LL's to set up your own website
called 'How to speculate and accumulate property and ruin the few
options there ever were for future generations'.
Your title quote: " LL's haven't had any tax incentives"
Closely followed by "So is it Priced Out that is the cause of recent media talk of abolishing tax relief from interest payments from LL's?"
I find slightly odd.
However I am ever so pleased Priced Out as a group is and will have such a
detromental effect on your sort of people. It has certainly rattled your cage.
Another classic defensive quote "Or are you just jumping on some bandwagon?"
Yes, would be my answer the 'Bandwagon of Justice' I call it.
Long may a few galient souls continue to fight for their rights and one day,
not too far away the greedy will fall.
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 3:25 AM |
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Well this site is small and lacking any influence, but I'm certainly keen to dispell myths created in support of people's own desires.
The fact is, you're angry you're renting and you blame your LL. There is nothing more rediculous when LL's are 10% of the market.
Why don't you address my point, that OO's benefit from tax breaks and LL's don't? Is it because you want those tax breaks for yourself too & are prepared to spread lies to achieve it?
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unclealbert
Activist
Posts:442
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| 07/07/2007 3:30 AM |
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"Well this site is small and lacking any influence"
Course it is sweetheart - you keep telling yourself that.
Funny though you managed to find it didn't you?
"The fact is, you're angry you're renting and you blame your LL"
...........and you're not??
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 3:33 AM |
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Posted By unclealbert on 07/07/2007 3:30 AM
"Well this site is small and lacking any influence"
Course it is sweetheart - you keep telling yourself that.
You may want to promote unaffordable housing, but you're failing as LL's are succeeding in making rents very affordable to you 'sweetheart'. |
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 3:35 AM |
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Posted By unclealbert on 07/07/2007 3:10 AM Time to Raise the Rents, I just wondered how long it would be before you appeared on this site. I have read many of your posts on GHPC forum and you have a distinct knack of being very aggressive towards tenants. I am aware of your portfolio and whilst everyone is entitled to their opinions, it is a shame you have decided to come on this forum, which is specifically designed to promote unaffordable housing. Opinions from landlords (professional or otherwise) whilst justified, are usually targeting tenants and people with no option of buying their own property for their financial security. My professional opinion is that it is the BTL's that have had an impact on the over-inflated housing crisis we now find ourselves in. I think it would be a good idea for you LL's to set up your own website called 'How to speculate and accumulate property and ruin the few options there ever were for future generations'. Your title quote: " LL's haven't had any tax incentives" Closely followed by "So is it Priced Out that is the cause of recent media talk of abolishing tax relief from interest payments from LL's?" I find slightly odd. However I am ever so pleased Priced Out as a group is and will have such a detromental effect on your sort of people. It has certainly rattled your cage. Another classic defensive quote "Or are you just jumping on some bandwagon?" Yes, would be my answer the 'Bandwagon of Justice' I call it. Long may a few galient souls continue to fight for their rights and one day, not too far away the greedy will fall.
What rights are you fighting for then?
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unclealbert
Activist
Posts:442
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| 07/07/2007 3:38 AM |
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"What rights are you fighting for then?"
The right to affordable housing maybe? Doh! |
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 3:45 AM |
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Posted By unclealbert on 07/07/2007 3:38 AM
"What rights are you fighting for then?"
The right to affordable housing maybe? Doh!
Are you renting now? |
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unclealbert
Activist
Posts:442
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| 07/07/2007 3:49 AM |
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"You may want to promote unaffordable housing, but you're failing as LL's
are succeeding in making rents very affordable to you 'sweetheart'."
Course they are and if an overflated price of a flat of say 200k was actually
the price of 10 years ago say 60k, are you saying rents would be higher than
now?
Think not. Don't think you're helping us, you are just lining your own pockets
for your own selfish ends.
Another question for you, if you are so confident that house prices are justified
and Landlord's (btl's etc) yourself included, are confident there is no problem that
our little website won't have any effect on your dominance, why are you even
on these websites to start with??
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 3:54 AM |
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Posted By unclealbert on 07/07/2007 3:49 AM "You may want to promote unaffordable housing, but you're failing as LL's are succeeding in making rents very affordable to you 'sweetheart'." Course they are and if an overflated price of a flat of say 200k was actually the price of 10 years ago say 60k, are you saying rents would be higher than now? Think not. Don't think you're helping us, you are just lining your own pockets for your own selfish ends. Another question for you, if you are so confident that house prices are justified and Landlord's (btl's etc) yourself included, are confident there is no problem that our little website won't have any effect on your dominance, why are you even on these websites to start with??
The fact is, you're not priced out, you're angry that you made the mistake of not buying when it was cheap.
I have offered you a partial solution to the problem of people buying up multiple properties and leaving them vacant. Will you address my thoughts on that, or is it just too tempting to be nasty to an LL instead? |
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unclealbert
Activist
Posts:442
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| 07/07/2007 4:03 AM |
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The question of being nasty to landlords is slightly OTT.
Angry yes, not specifically at landlords but to all the
profiteers of this 'bandwagon'.
Your solution is honourable, however I am afraid the
effects these people have caused will have an effect
on all property speculators, landlords or otherwise.
But don't keep kidding yourself you are helping tenants
with cheap rents, it is not a charity situation. In fact if
you could get more rent you would, your log-in name
kind of gives it away don't you think? 'Time to raise the rents'??
The fact is there is a surplus of landlord owned property and
you all have to compete with each other.
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unclealbert
Activist
Posts:442
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| 07/07/2007 4:05 AM |
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But please answer this question for me too?
"if you are so confident that house prices are justified
and Landlord's (btl's etc) yourself included, are confident there is no problem that
our little website won't have any effect on your dominance, why are you even
on these websites to start with??" |
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 4:10 AM |
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Posted By unclealbert on 07/07/2007 4:05 AM
But please answer this question for me too?
"if you are so confident that house prices are justified
and Landlord's (btl's etc) yourself included, are confident there is no problem that
our little website won't have any effect on your dominance, why are you even
on these websites to start with??"
Being a human being, I also like to talk. However I like to think of myself as being of a balanced opinion.
What I see in many housing bears is a desire to penalise others for their own mistakes or shortcomings. I grew up in foster care, had nothing to my name at 21 and have come a hell of a long way since then. So I know it's within everyone to realise their goals, they simply have to have a plan and stick to it. Planning the demise of all others isn't the way to success. |
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unclealbert
Activist
Posts:442
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| 07/07/2007 4:22 AM |
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Hey I totally agree with you.
You have done well to acheive what you have.
Ok i am a 'bear' as you put it, no house, but
balanced in my mindset also.
I don't believe we wish to penalise others, but
just want a country that is well balanced and
everyone has the same right to purchase a roof
over their heads for their own family's stability.
That is all.
Wars have been and continue to be fought in
the name of freedom. Internal feuds within
this nation will be the end of us all.
Todays generations do not have the freedom of
their peirs.
You have obviously made decisions which have
attributed to your wealth, bought at the 'right'
time etc. But my point is, it is this aspiration of an
entire generation that at the moment is having
a detromental effect on our future young generations.
Fairness and stability is all I would ask for.
But i have to say a log-in name of 'time to raise the
rents' doesn't really ooze these qualities, it also is
guaranteed to get a negative response! Don't you
think?
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Magrathea
Activist
Posts:435
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| 07/07/2007 4:48 AM |
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"If
prices were low, you'd be scared to invest any money in your home,
because it would be like pouring money into a black hole. A strong
market means people can invest in their own homes and the value won't
be lost."
Ha..ha..Thank you, biz, for hiring a comedian
You mean, in the same way that people don't buy shoes because the price is too low? - Or are put off buying cars because of extortionately low prices. ummm..i must say i haven't noticed that phenomena. Which part of the uk do you come from, i would interested in setting up bussiness there, selling goods at massively inflated prices so people will be encouraged, by my high prices, to buy off me..ha ha.
Ok, lets be charitable, what you meant to say was , if prices were *dropping* you would be scared to buy. But even that isn't entirely true is it, because if the price of shoes were dropping people would still buy shoes? In fact, the real prices of most consumer goods have been dropping relentlessly for about 200 years along with advantages of industrialisation and mass production and people are still buying shoes and cars.
"If prices fell, you would be too scared to buy &
you would become acutely aware of the service that your LL is
subsidising for you."
Well, prices cannot be in a state of 'falling' forever. If eventually prices were low and stable, people would buy houses to live in, do you agree? Do you also agree that their ability to buy houses to live in would be greater than it is now? Do you further to agree that this situation would be beneficial to the economy, at large, because people, having bought houses to live in at low prices, would have more money to spend on other services in the economy? What people wouldn't do is buy houses as a financial instrument, because if prices were low and stable, houses would be useless as a financial instrument. This distinction between the two reasons to buy a house is important because when you say, 'people would not buy houses' you are, in a way, right; people wouldn't buy houses in order to make money from simply holding on to houses, they would only make bids on housing they intended to use. The particular landlord 'service' you describe is a phantasm, a pretend service, it is merely a feature of price instability and so is not needed if prices are low and stable. So if prices were low and stable an entire useless sector of the community need not be paid for providing pretend services.
"I just gave you a way of levelling the
playing field by removing incentives to empty homes, but all you want
is to have a go at those that house you now."
Most of what you describe as a services is, in fact, part and parcel of a big dis-service to the entire economy.
"They've paid the market
price to buy, you pay the market price to rent, it is a fair deal and
serves you well when you need it, like now."
There ya are again, using the high prices to justify the high prices..circular reasoning
"A rented dwelling,
rented at a fair price isn't an injustice."
Presently it is, because the landlord is able to charge the tenant both for services he is providing and services he isn't providing. The landlord has, in reality, provided the house itself (bricks n stuff), but is also enabled to charge a tennant for the utility of local government services and local amenity, which not only did he not create, he also did not pay the creators for. And so the entire system of real estate ownership presently acts as one enormous injustice in which the creators of value are charged for the value they themselves create by the holders of real estate.
"An empty dwelling, heated
and maintained for 4 to 8 weeks use a year and the capital tied up in
it escaping normal taxes is an injustice."
All we need to do is tax all real estate according to value of services it receives from the community and this whole situation would resolve itself
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 5:23 AM |
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But i have to say a log-in name of 'time to raise the rents' doesn't really ooze these qualities, it also is guaranteed to get a negative response! Don't you think?
The name stems from my very first post on HPC 3 years ago & it stuck. My first post, first line was "All these rate rises, it must be........", then second line was "Time To Raise the Rents".
It's just a name that stuck. But rents have been rising, so it wasn't a bad choice for a landlord was it.
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TTRTR
Concerned Citizen
Posts:31
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| 07/07/2007 5:37 AM |
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Posted By Magrathea on 07/07/2007 4:48 AM
You mean, in the same way that people don't buy shoes because the price is too low? - Or are put off buying cars because of extortionately low prices. ummm..i must say i haven't noticed that phenomena. Which part of the uk do you come from, i would interested in setting up bussiness there, selling goods at massively inflated prices so people will be encouraged, by my high prices, to buy off me..ha ha.
[MODERATOR: *snip* please try to edit quoted text to a minimum and relevant parts]
Your shoes analogy is the work of a 13 year old economist right? I'll let you in on a secret, there are assets, durable goods and consumable goods. Which category does housing fall into and which category do shoes fall into?
Sames goes for the rest, basic kiddie science that contains no reasoning of the consequences of change. Kids think things are so simple because nothing will go wrong by people just doing what the child instictively knows is fair. All people should have a nice home, that they can afford. It's so simple isn't it, yet it's so childish too. Your removal of housing as a financial instrument would wipe out the economy as we know it, resulting in the largest depression ever, mass suicides, the destruction of wealth built up over hundreds of years and possibly the end of western civilisation. Good luck with your campaign & I hope you enjoy the steep learning curve you have ahead of you.
I especially love your bit at the end about taxing real estate according to the value of services it receives. Bloody hell I think we already have that, Council Tax. Rubbish is removed, streets are cleaned, parks are maintained etc etc out of that tax.
That tax happens to be unfair as it penalises the smaller real estate holdings and allows the larger ones to get away scott free. The imputed rent taxation would do away with that problem altogether. |
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